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Talk:Orion Colonies
The Orion Neutrality Area is mentioned only in the FASA source, and only rarely there, so I went with the more commonly used term 'Orion Space' (which, though colloquial, appears in a range of sources - admittedly in the same way one would speak of Federation space or Klingon space). – BadCatMan 03:21, September 6, 2010 (UTC) :Well then wouldn't it be "Orion space" and not "Orion Space"? :Regardless, a proper name was given, and there's no reason to disregard a proper name just because it was only in one source. -- Captain MKB 16:37, September 6, 2010 (UTC) :: Hmm. Going over every reference again... Every novel source says 'Orion space' (lower case), so those terms should be taken as colloquial. But the FASA source uses 'Orion Space' (upper case) throughout, so it's probably a bit more formal. It does however use 'Orion Space' interchangeably with 'Orion Neutrality Area' ("By unilateral treaty, Orion Space was now a sphere centred on Rigel...", "Orion Space - or more properly, the Orion Neutrality Area...", "Orion Space is a legal fiction..."). :: Unfortunately, Orion Space / Orion Neutrality Area, however, doesn't include all Orion colonies - it's an arbitrary sphere that excludes those on the Federation side (some of which became Federation members or were sold) and the Klingon side (most of which were conquered, annexed or other). Officially, the borders of wherever Orions live has been redrawn to the ONA, though this article should logically include Orion colonies on the Federation and Klingon sides, whether members/subjects or not. What to use? * Orion Neutrality Area / Orion Space (FASA): has the benefit of being the official political designation, though it's incomplete. * Orion Colonies or Thana Kolari ( ): Doesn't technically include the Rigel homeworld(s), and there are cultural divisions between that and the colonies. I suspect that Thana Kolari is simply the area once claimed by the Kolari Empire anyway, and even that surely doesn't cover the whole lot. * Orion Congeries (The Romulan Way, Spock's World): Congeries = 'A collection or aggregation of disparate items'. A suitable, if ugly, name, though the source is perhaps 2000 years old. * Orion Union (The Great Starship Race): It works, but given the context, it could equally be an alliance of several Orion groups, or even a business (largely the same thing). To describe all of the Orions as a Union is an oxymoron anyway. :) :: Maybe a few of these could go in the side-box, ala the entry for the Romulan Star Empire: Orion Neutrality Area (official name), Orion Space (common name), Orion Congeries (other name)? ONA can remain as the page name, and I'll eventually flesh out the article to properly describe every separate region. – BadCatMan 12:15, September 7, 2010 (UTC) Nice research job! From what has been stated here it seems to me that the main area commonly referred to as "Orion space" is covered by this title Orion Neutrality Area/Orion Space. And all these other terms refer to governments and/or alliances which control and/or operate both within this Neutrality Area, and potential elsewhere. The Union, congress, Colonies, etc, should therefore have their own articles explaining what is known about those particular organisations. --8of5 12:45, September 7, 2010 (UTC) : I agree. Every separate group should get its own page, and I'll get around to making or updating them in time (I've done Orion Union and Orion Congeries). However, having one for the general political make-up (or lack thereof) of all Orions would be nice, as a good place to index the communities of Rigel, all the Colonies, the various alliances and factions and other identities, and so on. Even the Syndicate would go there. The ONA wouldn't include those Colonies caught outside it. : Now, having gone over the FASA history (Orion history) and the rest of the book quite thoroughly... 'Orion Space' is used way way more often than 'Orion Neutrality Area' - throughout the book compared to a half-dozen mentions. 'Orion Space' is also first used in the History section after they gained their independence, and is generally used in the context of where Orions live and operate - their stomping grounds (as opposed to the Outer Dark, which is everything outside and largely unknown). : The Federation forced upon the Orions a restricted area encompassed by the Orion Neutrality Act, forming the Orion Neutrality Area, thus setting their borders. As a result, Orion Space (where they could live and act freely, or rather, where they can get away with it) was effectively pruned back to the ONA. Orion Neutrality Area (legal/political), Orion Space (cultural), Orion space (colloqiual), three different regions that sit in the same space. The book even warns of Federation citizens not distinguishing between ONA and Orion-inhabited worlds. : I guess, with a better understanding of these things now, it would go like this: * Orion Space: the cultural understanding of a region (an 'our land' concept) * Orion Neutrality Area: the political and legal determination of a region * Orion Union, Orion Congeries: unknown, covered separately. * Orion Colonies: "Orion Colony/Colonies" (capital C) is used in the FASA books quite frequently, and distinctly from Orion colonies (lower c). I think this may be the best name of the collection of all Orion worlds, whether in Federation space, Klingon space, Neutral Zone or Orion Neutrality Area. It doesn't quite include the homeworld (and we can't be sure which that is), but it is treated more as the capital and cultural/spiritual home rather than a separate political entity, albeit a very weak capital with a lot rivalry. Thana Kolari could go in as a secondary name. This would include (well, link to) a range of lesser alliances with in it, such as the Orion Frontier Merchants Association, the Orion Syndicate, and so on. * Botchok Planetary Congress: the government itself, mainly of the homeworld, but with some minor influence and its the one that other interstellar states talk to. : So, I propose renaming this article to 'Orion Colonies'. Sound okay? 'Orion Neutrality Area' would form a separate article, detailing it as a region of space with associate laws. Essentially its a Neutral Zone. : Poor Orions, even the Kazon got to call themselves the Kazon Collective. :( – BadCatMan 05:58, September 16, 2010 (UTC) :: Lol, indeed on the Orions not getting a formal name for themselves... mind you I think the Orions are a lot cooler than the Kazon :p Also, very good work there BadCatMan. Been keeping watch on your contributions on the Orion stuff and its very good so thought I should mention that. Anyway, personally, I think if we are taking about the government from the FASA material, it should be Orion Colonies. I think one of the FASA books mentions an Orion Colonies Intelligence which is supposed to be their spy bureau though the main text doesn't use the name. And from what I can understand, is the Orion Neutrality Area effectively their version of the Neutral Zone? FASA seems to enjoy making equivalents of the Neutral Zone for the other races. So we have the Romulan Neutral Zone that borders the UFP and Romulans, the Organian Treaty Zone for the Klingons so potentially it could be that the Orion Neutrality Area is the zone between the UFP and Orion Colonies? Just my thought on it. Orion Space could effectively just be the worlds in their territory. I believe the LUG time travel book has mentions of numerous Orion empires that formed throughout history. Let me know and I can try and fish out the information for you unless you already have that book. Anyway keep up the good work! :) – Darth Batrus 12:09, September 16, 2010 (UTC) ::: Thanks. I've become something of a fan of Orions. :) ::: The Orion Colonies Intelligence is stated to be a tool of the BPC ("the decrepit Botchok Planetary Congress and its creature, the Orion Colonies Intelligence"; "the Big Four control the Botchok Planetary Congress and the Orion Colonies Intelligence.") and its main purpose is to help the BPC maintain control over the Colonies themselves, via intelligence and deal making. It's largely an internal spy bureau. (External matters may be handled on a case-by-case basis, or even by the Syndicate.) ::: The ONA is not quite a Neutral Zone, though it actually forms a bubble in the Klingon Neutral Zone. They claim the whole territory, but call it and themselves neutral (ie. dealing with both sides) when it comes to conflicts between the UFP and the Klingons. It's main purpose is to say "this is how far Orion laws (or lack thereof) reach." ::: So, the 'State' is the Orion Colonies, the 'Government' is the BPC, the territory occupied is Orion Space / Orion Neutrality Area (and the Outer Dark is everything outside), the intelligence agency is the OCI, and the military is the Orion Space Navy. That seems about right. ::: Thanks, I'll look up that LUG book. I guess the Empires it talks of are basically those in the Decipher rpg history? ::: – BadCatMan 05:14, September 17, 2010 (UTC) :::: Hmmm most interesting, I like your anaylsis on this. Also, on the LUG book, it simply mentions the timeline of events and mentions I think at least 12 different incarnations of the Orion Empire. They apparently warred against the First Federation at one point. So for a timeline guide, I would recommend the book though sadly it doesnt go in depth about the topic. – Darth Batrus 20:05, September 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::: Ah, yep, Decipher has the 12 Empires too. Decipher seems to take after LUG in most areas, though it doesn't mention the 2nd Empire vs the FF. I've gone to the FF page and found that bit of history, which I've added to Orion history. ::::: In other news, I've gotten a hold of the FASA rpg (2nd edition) itself, which makes the Orion group name explicit: "the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, the Orion Colonies, the Gorn Alliance, and the Tholian Assembly..." (Well, Gorn got contradicted, at least in the mid-21st century.) It also confirm the bird-bat-thing logo (I think it's an Orion wing-slug :D). So, Orion Colonies it is - until something better and more up-to-date comes along. :D ::::: – BadCatMan 11:58, September 18, 2010 (UTC)